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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to make a draw against the Grünfeld? (Read 34891 times)
brabo
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #32 - 07/07/15 at 10:04:48
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MartinC wrote on 07/07/15 at 08:16:56:
There's the odd person more or less running that sort of experiment, and the answer is a fair few.

Mostly because these people obviously tend to end up  badly under graded vs their 'real' playing strength so often have quite good positions when they offer the draw!

I fully agree. I've known several players enjoying more the bar than the stress of a standard game so they were very often offering draws (some people even did in each game). They didn't care about having a rating below their actual playing strength. The nickname "draw kings" was often used for those players.

I also remember that it can be as higher rated player pretty annoying to meet such type of player during a tournament. You get much harder resistance than you normally would expect which is only slightly compensated by the fact that you almost always can agree to a draw. In practice I once scored 2 draws against such 2100 rated player and only in the third game I managed to win by taking huge risks and pushing till the endgame despite being rated 200 points more.

I also believe this type of players is something which you won't find anymore at +2200 or even slightly lower. That doesn't mean that a higher rated player will not in some specific games play for a draw. Anyway we are digressing from the subject.

Ps. I also want to draw your attention to an article which I wrote about short draws last year: http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2014/03/sofia-rules.html
Most interesting conclusion was by reducing 1/3 of the short draws in my own practice, I was able to reduce by 1/5 the number of draws.
  
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MartinC
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #31 - 07/07/15 at 08:16:56
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There's the odd person more or less running that sort of experiment, and the answer is a fair few.

Mostly because these people obviously tend to end up  badly under graded vs their 'real' playing strength so often have quite good positions when they offer the draw!
  
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RoleyPoley
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #30 - 07/06/15 at 20:05:35
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yolocounty wrote on 07/03/15 at 22:15:55:
The answer to the former question is "look up early repetition draws in GM games and find one that is hard for Black to avoid," although I have no idea why anyone would ever play for a draw at amateur (Below GM) level.


Club players are often so afraid of losing they will bail out with a draw at the earliest opportunity. I would love to see an experiement where someone goes through a whole season offering draws to all of his opponents really early in the game and see how many accept.

during an under 100ecf match at the weekend, i think i saw that someone had agreed a draw with both players only using about 20 minutes each out of  2 hours to the first time control!
  

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yolocounty
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #29 - 07/03/15 at 22:15:55
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Look at the old Karpov-Kasparov games from their Wch matches.  Karpov played the Bf4 line and got some mostly unlosable positions.  Just make sure you don't end up in a bad minor piece ending by trading the wrong things.

I assume the real question is not "How do I play for a draw against the Grunfeld?" but "How do I play for two results against the Grunfeld?"

The answer to the former question is "look up early repetition draws in GM games and find one that is hard for Black to avoid," although I have no idea why anyone would ever play for a draw at amateur (Below GM) level.
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #28 - 12/08/13 at 09:31:03
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It's better to just play a good line and get your draw from a good position ! You're all round game needs to be good enough to get the draw from the 'drawish' position.
There have been many decisive results in the Be3 exchange ending
  
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #27 - 11/18/13 at 20:01:37
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A game from the correspondence chess practice which can help you:



Wink
  
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Toshak
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #26 - 11/18/13 at 19:06:57
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shepi13 wrote on 04/11/13 at 05:10:15:


I wouldn't expect white to lose this position, although perhaps black could deviate in some way. In fact, white might have some winning chances, such as Kramnik-Svidler from the candidates.



I think white has a slight edge in this positon, but I'm not so sure what to do if black plays 12. - f5 now. This is a rather rare line but the white center is under attack immediatedly and in case of 13. e5 the move 13. - Be6 looks rather solid and blocks the white pawns.

  
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ErictheRed
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #25 - 05/30/13 at 17:45:30
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BPaulsen wrote on 04/23/13 at 20:26:35:
ErictheRed wrote on 04/23/13 at 18:26:34:
My latest try against the Grunfeld is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd Nxd5 5.g3, or possibly 4.Nf3 and then 5.cd and 6.g3.  I have no opinion on it at the moment, but I'm trying to find something I like against the Grunfeld that isn't analyzed to death, and it's tough!


Good luck with that.

If I were playing 1.d4 I would probably just roll with 4.Qb3. Delaying Nf3 has plenty of beneficial nuances there, and it may take the black player out of his favorite Russian System variation. Theoretically it's as good a choice as any, and practically it has plenty of bite. It also complements your choice of the Saemisch, and "rewards" your resistance to Nf3.

For example, in Dembo's book on the Grunfeld her recommendation proved insufficient in C. Enescu-Z. Ivanovic, E-Mail 2010. Small details like that are always helpful.

You could do a lot worse. I'm sure the more recent texts (ie: Delchev, Avrukh) manage to reinforce black's cause, and although I haven't seen them, I'm sure white's cause is good enough that it would still merit recommendation in practical play as a serious try for an edge.


Thanks, that's probably the best place for me to look since I don't want to play an early Nf3.
  
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #24 - 04/25/13 at 10:33:33
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tony37 wrote on 04/23/13 at 17:26:24:
ErictheRed wrote on 04/12/13 at 18:58:02:
I know it's been discussed in other places around here as well.  Basically after 7...0-0?! 8.Be2! c5, White can play the much more useful 9.0-0! instead of 9.Rb1.  The Rook doesn't need to move now, as after 9.0-0 Nc6 10.Be3 cd 11.cd Bg4 12.d5! is not even a sacrifice.

while looking at some anti-Grünfeld lines I found a way to trick black into this line (if he isn't careful): 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.Be2 and now more than half of the games here continue 7...O-O (c5 should be played, and is played in most top games) but 8.d4 immediately transposes to the line you mention
of course you have to start with 1.Nf3 then


Just take care that after 7...c5 (instead of 7...OO) 8.d4 Nc6 you'd have tricked yourself into a line where White is struggling. But leaving the beaten path with something like 8.OO Nc6 (8...OO 9.d4 would again be the "trick" line) 9.Rb1 OO 10.Qa4 looks playable.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #23 - 04/23/13 at 20:26:35
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ErictheRed wrote on 04/23/13 at 18:26:34:
My latest try against the Grunfeld is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd Nxd5 5.g3, or possibly 4.Nf3 and then 5.cd and 6.g3.  I have no opinion on it at the moment, but I'm trying to find something I like against the Grunfeld that isn't analyzed to death, and it's tough!


Good luck with that.

If I were playing 1.d4 I would probably just roll with 4.Qb3. Delaying Nf3 has plenty of beneficial nuances there, and it may take the black player out of his favorite Russian System variation. Theoretically it's as good a choice as any, and practically it has plenty of bite. It also complements your choice of the Saemisch, and "rewards" your resistance to Nf3.

For example, in Dembo's book on the Grunfeld her recommendation proved insufficient in C. Enescu-Z. Ivanovic, E-Mail 2010. Small details like that are always helpful.

You could do a lot worse. I'm sure the more recent texts (ie: Delchev, Avrukh) manage to reinforce black's cause, and although I haven't seen them, I'm sure white's cause is good enough that it would still merit recommendation in practical play as a serious try for an edge.
  

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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #22 - 04/23/13 at 20:07:45
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Half a month ago Grischuk tried Ng1-f3, Bc1-g5 and h2-h4 and a week later Morozevich even omitted Bg5 from this line..
And I think they tried the same, too.. ("...find something I like against the Grunfeld that isn't analyzed to death..")  Grin

Edit: Not with outstanding results, though.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #21 - 04/23/13 at 18:26:34
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tony37 wrote on 04/23/13 at 17:26:24:
ErictheRed wrote on 04/12/13 at 18:58:02:
I know it's been discussed in other places around here as well.  Basically after 7...0-0?! 8.Be2! c5, White can play the much more useful 9.0-0! instead of 9.Rb1.  The Rook doesn't need to move now, as after 9.0-0 Nc6 10.Be3 cd 11.cd Bg4 12.d5! is not even a sacrifice.

while looking at some anti-Grünfeld lines I found a way to trick black into this line (if he isn't careful): 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.Be2 and now more than half of the games here continue 7...O-O (c5 should be played, and is played in most top games) but 8.d4 immediately transposes to the line you mention
of course you have to start with 1.Nf3 then


Yes, if I didn't have such an excellent score with the Saemisch King's Indian I'd probably start with 1.Nf3, as all of my other lines involve putting the Knight on f3.  Except against the Benko I guess, but with 1.Nf3 I wouldn't need to worry about that!

My latest try against the Grunfeld is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd Nxd5 5.g3, or possibly 4.Nf3 and then 5.cd and 6.g3.  I have no opinion on it at the moment, but I'm trying to find something I like against the Grunfeld that isn't analyzed to death, and it's tough!
  
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tony37
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #20 - 04/23/13 at 17:26:24
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ErictheRed wrote on 04/12/13 at 18:58:02:
I know it's been discussed in other places around here as well.  Basically after 7...0-0?! 8.Be2! c5, White can play the much more useful 9.0-0! instead of 9.Rb1.  The Rook doesn't need to move now, as after 9.0-0 Nc6 10.Be3 cd 11.cd Bg4 12.d5! is not even a sacrifice.

while looking at some anti-Grünfeld lines I found a way to trick black into this line (if he isn't careful): 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.Be2 and now more than half of the games here continue 7...O-O (c5 should be played, and is played in most top games) but 8.d4 immediately transposes to the line you mention
of course you have to start with 1.Nf3 then
  
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #19 - 04/20/13 at 23:18:43
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A very safe and solid choice would be 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bg5 Ne4 6.Bf4 which has been used by some very strong GMs
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: How to make a draw against the Grünfeld?
Reply #18 - 04/13/13 at 19:33:50
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Well yes, most Grunfeld players know this, but 25% of players in a database walking into an inferior line is a pretty significant number.  Below Master level I'm sure that it happens more often; in my own experience I met 7...0-0 approximately half the time.

But my point wasn't that this should form the core of an anti-Grunfeld repertoire.  Rather that I liked the suggestion of 7...c5 8.Bb5+ the most because it's logical, straightforward, and based on sound development (White is using this Bishop to fight for the d4 square by either pinning Black's Knight on c6 or forcing an piece to go to d7).  As a further bonus, if Black tries to avoid this line with 7...0-0, White can play 8.Be2! with a very pleasant position.

So combined with 7...0-0 8.Bb5+ you have a nice little repertoire against the Grunfeld, except for the fact that the 8.Bb5+ lines are not the most exciting for either side.  But 8.Bb5+ is not a bad or gimmicky move, which I think that something like 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf6 Bg7 5.h4 is.
  
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